Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/02 12:05Which road is going to be taken? Which do you guys think is the best, and why?
Personally I'm a fan of Erratum/MRPs in card games. Having cards banned is normally good for the game because cards are generally banned due to being broken (after being created due to poor playtesting and/or good marketing strategy), but at the same time unusable cards suck.
My favourite rules procedure:
1- Proble mcard identified 2- Temporary, immediate ban to avoid tournaments becoming /yawn 3- Errata to correct issues
Without mentioning any specific cards (I think most of us are well aware which cards could do with banning and/or errata by now ), what do you guys think on errata and banning issues? Which path should CCP take? Have they already decided?
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Onyx Verde
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 660
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/02 12:53I would prefer errata to outright bans because, as you say, it's better to have as big a card pool as possible. Once we get some more expansions i reckon we will see more cards becoming broken that aren't at the moment, and in some cases like that errata wont work, or rather, the errata make the card fundamentally different from what it was in the first place, so you endup with a totally different card with the same name as the original version. But i still think perma-bans should be the absolute last resort, even if the card does have to undergo radical changes.
In terms of how CCP are handling it, the majority of reworkings seem to be mostly for clarification purposes. It's good in the first instance that there hasn't been a knee-jerk response to some of the initial gripes about "broken" cards (I'm mostly thinking here about Insurance Fraud, Oneiros and Guardian) because ususually in cases like these there's absolutely nothing wrong with the cards, people just cant be bothered to come up with decent counter-strategies. The devs have been very steadfast so far in not bowing down to small groups of vocal whiners, and they should keep that up. CCP have been criticised heavily over the recent proposed changes to the EVE Online, and hopefully they are being very philosophical and tentative about how they'll handle changes to the CCG. (apologies to all you pure CCGers, but to put it in context it was felt that the proposed changes in the next expansion of EVE-O have only arisen due to protracted whining from very small sections of the forum community, and that these changes will do more harm than good).============================ "There is always Hope...." - Elessar Telcontar ============================
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AgentZero
Admin Admin
Posts: 410
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/02 14:58The specifics aren't really up to me, but last I heard we had a bet going with the Vampire: The Eternal Struggle guys on who would ban the fewest number of cards in the next few years.
It's unavoidable that some cards will simply be banned, but the developers want to rely upon errata as much as possible. I wholeheartedly support errata over banning.Zack Walters EVE: The Second Genesis Organized Play Coordinator White Wolf | CCP North America
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Ryuteki
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 679
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/02 15:20@Zack: You've just REALLY REALLY scared me. I played VTES a lot in the old days, and their "errata" changed so many cards so drastically that I had to rebuild every single one of my six decks almost from the ground up. Some cards (I'm looking most heavily at Tomb of Ramses III here) don't even have a meaningful function anymore, and might as well be read as "Master Action: Throw Resources Away."
@Onyx: nothing wrong with the cards, people just cant be bothered to come up with decent counter-strategies... You should never have to build a strategy to account for a single card. That is the very specific warning sign that Rules Teams look for in cards that are too powerful.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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AgentZero
Admin Admin
Posts: 410
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/02 15:55Rest assured, if we emulate anything about V:TES, it will be something positive. The devs are huge card buffs, so they know the decisions that should be avoided.Zack Walters EVE: The Second Genesis Organized Play Coordinator White Wolf | CCP North America
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Vardemis
User Frigate
Posts: 61
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/02 17:33Calmdown wrote: [...](I think most of us are well aware which cards could do with banning and/or errata by now )[...]
Some cards are quite obvious I give you that, but until there have been a decent ammount of tournaments it is really hard to tell, which are rearly broken or just very good.
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Malthros
User Cruiser
Posts: 98
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/03 01:41I'd suggest lookng at the logistic ships in general, Basilisk is basicly a 1 round invulnerability, Onerios are, well, absurd in fleets, the other two are probably buff too but I forget what they do.
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Calmdown
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 284
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/03 07:17Malthros wrote: I'd suggest lookng at the logistic ships in general, Basilisk is basicly a 1 round invulnerability, Onerios are, well, absurd in fleets, the other two are probably buff too but I forget what they do.
You're forgetting the Guardian, the original 'omgbroke' Eve card
The Scimitar really isn't up to scratch though. Fits a lot better with Minmatar, but doesn't come close to being worth putting in a deck. Maybe if it was 5/4 like the Scythe, then it'd be worth it
To be honest though, I still dont have an issue with logistics ships. This has been discussed half to death already, but theyre assembly 2, 3/4 races get them, and they don't actually kill anything alone.
Like someone said above though - time will tell. Nothing gets errata'd or banned in a CCG until a deck using it dominates the tourney sscene and people can see firsthand how broken it is.
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Onyx Verde
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 660
Re:Erratum, Card bannings, etc? - 2006/11/03 09:56Ryuteki wrote: @Onyx: nothing wrong with the cards, people just cant be bothered to come up with decent counter-strategies... You should never have to build a strategy to account for a single card. That is the very specific warning sign that Rules Teams look for in cards that are too powerful.
Agreed, but i wasnt talking about auto-entry cards in every deck to deal with certain "broken" cards, but instead only in certain archetypes and strategies e.g. if your deck is based on an Eve Gate win then cards like the Guardian and Onei can really stiff you.============================ "There is always Hope...." - Elessar Telcontar ============================
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), what do you guys think on errata and banning issues? Which path should CCP take? Have they already decided?
