Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/29 11:39Ships become fully assembled once they no longer have any assemble durations left to go through.
In your example if a ship with 0 assemble durations is saved with a Narrow Escape it is fully assembled and able to do anything that a ship could normally do in that part of the game. Hope that helps.We shall seed the stars with our scions and reap that harvest.
No expect the Spam, spam, spam, spam...
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Buhallin
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/29 20:21I've tried to explain it, Snooby. You've gone to the dictionary to support your points, rather than the game rules. Your entire involvement in this discussion has been devoid of game rules. I have no issue with someone being wrong about a ruling, but if you repeatedly show yourself unwilling to stick to relevant points, I begin to get dismissive... But I've never told you to shut up - I've asked you to stick to rules... That can only be interpretted as 'shut up' if you have no actual rules-related points to make.
I also abhor partial points, so let's try this by looking at the actual definition of 'becomes', which you left off above. If you'd looked past the verb part, you would have found 'to grow or come to be'. Nowhere in that definition is anything which implies a required previous state, other than 'not X'.
Which answer's Crimson's question, I think. A ship cannot become something it already is, so if a ship goes from fully assembled to fully assembled (such as the Narrow Escaping Scout), it would not trigger those abilities.
Back to Snooby: I don't know how else to explain it. There is no requirement for a ship to be partially assembled before it can be fully assembled, nor is there any rules which define that transition as occurring. Your example with Serpentis Prime and the Mammoth may be right, although I think not (as it says 'place it here', which IMHO replaces where you would normally place it... And playing a ship is taking it from your hand and putting it on the pile, not into play), but it breaks down with ships like the scouts that are 0 assembly.
<shrug> Can you actually provide anything that supports the idea that a ship must be 'partially assembled' before it can become fully assembled? That is, as near as I can figure, the core of your argument.
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Snooby
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/30 00:33Your entire involvement in this discussion has been devoid of game rules. FALSE (posted and quoted)
But I've never told you to shut up - I've asked you to stick to rules That can only be interpretted as 'shut up' if you have no actual rules-related points to make.
So, in other words (yours), you told me to shut up.
Also, if you took the time to read my posts you would notice that i used the dictionary to define "action" in the context it was used. I did not say it was a "game action". Also, your definition of "becomes" backs up what i originally said :/
I see an underlying thread of contradictions in the posts on these forums. Mostly by people arguing that someone is wrong and quoting that person's post back at them as proof but reworded to make it seem different.
A ship cannot become something it already is, so if a ship goes from fully assembled to fully assembled (such as the Narrow Escaping Scout), it would not trigger those abilities.
(I actually gave, and later quoted, a conceptual example of this in my previous posts).
Narrow Escape: If target friendly ship is destroyed during damage step, return it to your dock to be assembled again instead of placing it on the scrapheap.
"Warping out of a fight with massive structural damage leaves you with a special kind of high...until you get the repair bill, that is."
The card itself tells you that the ship virtually limped home to be repaired. Or, if we stick to the rules and try not to immerse ourselves in the actual game:
Fully Assembled -> DESTROYED -> Fully Assembled.
But this does NOT trigger a "becomes fully assembled ability"?!?
I would have no problem with the rules if they were consistent - but they are not, they are constantly being re-evaluated thanks to us loyal fans "who spend hours picking the game apart". Sometimes the rules do not have the answer - if they did then many of the questions on here would never be asked!
I think crimsongrove also stated that "that's the way it works" may, in some cases, be a definitive answer, but it is not a definitive explaination.
Post edited by: Snooby, at: 2007/10/29 23:42
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'You have yet to offer rules arguments, please do so' is not the same as 'shut up'. I had forgotten your argument about the Mammoth+Serpentis Prime, which (although incorrect, see below) was rules based - sorry about that. But your signal to noise ratio tends to be very poor, and it's easy to lose true rules arguments amidst the fluff and strange, pointless dictionary definitions.
"Destroyed" is not a state. The important word on Narrow Escape is INSTEAD. The scout never goes to the scrapheap, so it never leaves play, so there is no moment when it is not fully assembled. Therefore, it is fully assembled at all times, and cannot again "become" fully assembled. Any ship with an assembly time, however, DOES leave the fully assembled state, and will therefore trigger "becomes fully assembled" again when it completes assembly.
After looking at it more closely, I'm very sure your interpretation of Serpentis Prime is wrong. When you play a card, it goes on the pile. That triggers the option for you to use Serpentis Prime's ability (assume you do), which then also goes on the pile. SP then resolves, changing where the ship goes when it comes into play. The ship then resolves, and is placed in Serpentis Prime. At no point does it touch your dock or any assembly stage.
I didn't feel the need to specify 'game action' over 'vague definition of generic verb as action' because it seemed silly to do so. We're talking about the rules here, so 'action' should always refer to some action you can take in the game, especially since I even said 'nowhere is this DEFINED as an action'. And just as a fun continuation, 'is' is also a verb... Is (heh) an action required every time a check for 'if X is in an outer region' now?
I don't see how the definition of becomes supports your original point. Here's the money quote, IMHO: Also, the phrase "becomes fully assembled" implies that at a previous stage of existence it was partially assembled. There is nothing in the definition of 'becomes' which says anything about the previous state (except, perhaps, that it must have previously been something different). There is nothing in the rules to back up the idea that 'partially assembled' (which isn't a term that ever appears in the game, so far as I know) must preceed 'fully assembled'. If your hypothesis here is correct, it also creates more problems for the scouts: they have no assembly tab, so can never be 'partially assembled' and therefore can never 'become fully assembled'.
You and Brootal also both use the term 'undefined state', which I don't believe is accurate... The card has states while not in play - it's a card, it's not a ship, it's in your hand, etc. More importantly, the card is NOT fully assembled while in your hand. So even ignoring scary card memory issues, a card which you bounce to your hand and then re-play will 'become fully assembled' again.
I'm truly sorry you're having such a hard time with this, Snooby. There are plenty of places where the rules are inconsistent - IMHO, this isn't one of them. With the lack of a really robust level of rules arbitration from WW, the players are pretty much all we've got for most issues. You're welcome to take or leave anything any of us say.
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Buhallin
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/30 20:35<shrug> Your choice, of course, but it's a very petty view which is unlikely to benefit you or anyone else. I may not care for Ryuteki on a personal level, but I still evaluate his arguments on their merits, rather than universally dismissing them. Like or dislike for someone does not make them any more or less correct.
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In my opinion, when a ship is brought into play fully assembled, it is "becoming fully assembled" for triggering purposes. It was a card, but is becoming a ship. What type of ship? A fully assembled ship, of course, the card tells us so. Since it is becoming a fully assembled ship, it seems incongruous to say that it is not becoming fully assembled, even if it is doing so in a rather unusual manner.
-Ryuteki Redeemer of Ogar Magi Nation DUEL Rules Team
(yeah, I know it doesn't count, but I miss using it!)-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Deathisjustadoor
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/11/25 06:21Card makes transtion from hand to board. POOF It has become fully assembled. Regardless of how long it took, the thing still had to be built(assembled in game terms). If it ain't fully built (assembled), it ain't a ship, it's just a hunk of useless metal. The ship was "partially assembled" when it was ore in some astroid belt.The Amarrians just shelled out a lot of money, probably the lives of a lot of slaves, and the hull of another ship (that's why you're sacrificing one) to get it out there faster, that's all.Be extremly subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremly mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of an opponent's fate. Sun Tzu; The Art Of War
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Sellout23
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2008/01/09 15:00Agent Zero!!!! Make a ruling please? Your opinion is the only one that matters.Team R.I.W hobbies "We decide the meta!!!".
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Ryuteki
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2008/01/15 04:44Sellout23 wrote: Agent Zero!!!! Make a ruling please? Your opinion is the only one that matters.
Aww, now that hurts.
In the absence of truly official commentary, I'll let my comment stand as the ruling to use, on the force of my position as an official judge of the EVE GenCon World Championship Tournament. Please use it until otherwise instructed by a WW/CCP representative. -Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Kempeth
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2008/01/15 08:32IMO "Blood Apostle" does become fully assembled and that ability triggers. This was the consensus in every single discussion i have read so far about cards that put ships into play ("Lonetrek", "Serpentis Prime","Mammoth","Osprey").
It stands to reason that "Concord Escort" and "Mastermind" which do the same thing have the same effect...
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AgentZero
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Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2008/01/18 18:53Okay, resolving this once and for all. I thought this was just a matter of semantics, but it seems there's still some contention over the end result of the card pairing.
When Blood Apostle is brought into play via Concord Escort, it is considered "fully assembled" and thus its restrictive "ability" is triggered (i.e. you still sacrifice a ship when it enters play via Concord Escort).Zack Walters EVE: The Second Genesis Organized Play Coordinator White Wolf | CCP North America
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It has become fully assembled. Regardless of how long it took, the thing still had to be built(assembled in game terms). If it ain't fully built (assembled), it ain't a ship, it's just a hunk of useless metal. The ship was "partially assembled" when it was ore in some astroid belt.The Amarrians just shelled out a lot of money, probably the lives of a lot of slaves, and the hull of another ship (that's why you're sacrificing one) to get it out there faster, that's all.
