Caldari Leech - 2007/03/04 20:53I'd like some feedback on a deck I made. It's a bit of an experiment but has fared quite well in testing so far. 3 wins, no losses in this version. 3 wins and 1 loss during "beta"...
Venal Tower Heaven Lonetrek The Khanid Kingdom
4 Scordite 4 Star Chart Enterprises 4 Veldspar
4 Advanced Shipyard 2 Central Fleet Command 2 EMP Minefield 2 Human Containment Facilities 2 Thukker Pirate Haven
2 Faulty Implant Manufacturer 2 Feed On The Weak 2 Mind Clash 4 Mind Control 2 Power Shortage 4 Stubborn Mechanic
60 Cards total
The basic idea was to find as many ways as possible to leech ISK from your opponent while doing no mining or trading yourself. Then build up forces and have Osprey or Lonetrek to insta-deploy one of the big ships.
All the locations CAN be played in the home region and the Starchart-Scordite combo is to get additional ISK at start.
I'm thinking of dropping the pirate haven's as i found them difficult to pull off. Also the starchart-scordite combo is a little vulnerable.
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Kempeth
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/07 14:33Cmon. Is it so good that no one has a suggestion?
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Ryuteki
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/07 15:13My first suggestion: Drop 8 cards immediately. You are relying on a two-card combo in your opening hand or soon after for your money production, you NEED to be at your minimum deck size to maximize your chances of getting that combo. Probably cull from News and Structures.
My second suggestion: Pick 3 ships you really want to see in play, and put 4 of each of them in the deck (dropping out some of the other pairs). I'm thinking possibly Blackbird, Kestrel, Cormorant, but I haven't really looked at what all of the ships are.
Come back after you've done that and we'll revisit. -Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Buhallin
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/07 22:18Personally, I like the spread of ships. It gives you a wide spread of useful abilities that you rarely see from the "4 of each" deck building. Warp Scramble isn't something you build a deck around, but there are times it'll come in handy. Most frigates especially are a lot more interchangeable than many people give them credit for.
I don't know that I'm a fan of Star Chart Enterprises. Even if you manage the combo, you're spending 3 to gain the 3 back - at best, you're making your Scordite free. Better perhaps to go with Omber and ditch the card from hand.
If you have them, I'd put in two more Feed on the Weak. It seems that will be one of your largest moneymakers.
But you get definite credit from me for avoiding the "4x13" deck building approach.
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Onyx Verde
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/07 22:53I love Caldari decks becuz they can be real slow-burners and can end up wrecking in the mid / late game, and this deck looks like it could do just that. But you gotta turtle until then and for that you need Kessies. Otherwise I like the whole build and the idea behind it. ============================ "There is always Hope...." - Elessar Telcontar ============================
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Kempeth
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 09:20Buhallin wrote: Personally, I like the spread of ships. It gives you a wide spread of useful abilities that you rarely see from the "4 of each" deck building. Warp Scramble isn't something you build a deck around, but there are times it'll come in handy. Most frigates especially are a lot more interchangeable than many people give them credit for. After loosing my last match against Zack's 40$ deck with my already resized (52 cards) leech deck I've decided to re-balance it. I dropped a lot of the structures and included more ships but of fewer types. I drew a total of 3 ships in that game 2 weak ones and the scorpion... That's why I lost.
Buhallin wrote: I don't know that I'm a fan of Star Chart Enterprises. Even if you manage the combo, you're spending 3 to gain the 3 back - at best, you're making your Scordite free. Better perhaps to go with Omber and ditch the card from hand. 2 to gain 3. I somewhat dislike Omber. I usually need my hand cards. The biggest problem with the combo is when you only have scordites on your hand. Star Chart can be pretty useful on it's own and together with scordite it makes an awesome opening (4 ISK plus an assembled Kestrel by turn 2 are not bad)...
Buhallin wrote: If you have them, I'd put in two more Feed on the Weak. It seems that will be one of your largest moneymakers. That is a good idea. After ditching the pirate heavens I really could use some more leeching...
Buhallin wrote: But you get definite credit from me for avoiding the "4x13" deck building approach. Thanks.
I'll try to give it a few more plays before posting my next version. Thanks for the suggestions.
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Ryuteki
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 13:20Kempeth wrote: Buhallin wrote: I don't know that I'm a fan of Star Chart Enterprises. Even if you manage the combo, you're spending 3 to gain the 3 back - at best, you're making your Scordite free. Better perhaps to go with Omber and ditch the card from hand. 2 to gain 3. I somewhat dislike Omber. I usually need my hand cards. The biggest problem with the combo is when you only have scordites on your hand. Star Chart can be pretty useful on it's own and together with scordite it makes an awesome opening (4 ISK plus an assembled Kestrel by turn 2 are not bad)...
Actually, if you consider Sansha's Scout Outpost to be 1 for 2, then the SCE+Scordite combo is 2 for 5. The true advantage to the combo is, not only do you put a 2 income, 2 ore location into play, but you essentially get paid 1 ISK immediately, leaving you 3 MORE isk to spend on your first turn. It's a pretty sweet combo if you can get it to play nice.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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AgentZero
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 14:25Yeah, he used that to get a Kestrel out on his first turn against me. If it weren't for his crappy draw, Kempeth probably would have sunk me with income like that.Zack Walters EVE: The Second Genesis Organized Play Coordinator White Wolf | CCP North America
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Buhallin
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 15:30It just seems to be a heck of a long shot to me. While it's undoubtedly inspiring if it works, you're looking at a 2 (3, if you include the Kestrel) card combo out of your opening hand +1 or +2. Ryuteki's 2 for 5 is a 3 card setup as well.
Star Chart gives a nice boost, but it loses out to most other locations quickly. After two turns an Omber, Scordite, or Sansha's has equaled or surpassed it, and they keep going from there.
Gaining for an opponent's location is an uncertain income, but since the combo seems to be to get the Star Chart out of play ASAP, that seems counterintuitive.
One other question, Kempeth: Is there any particular theme here for structure neutralization? You seem to have relatively a lot of it (Power Shortage, Mind Clash), but it doesn't fit the leech theme all that much. Are they there just for utility counters?
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Ryuteki
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 15:34Buhallin wrote: It just seems to be a heck of a long shot to me. While it's undoubtedly inspiring if it works, you're looking at a 2 (3, if you include the Kestrel) card combo out of your opening hand +1 or +2. Ryuteki's 2 for 5 is a 3 card setup as well.
Uh, no. Two cards. SCE (cost:1), Scordite (cost:1 + sacrifice SCE). Costs your 2 starting ISK. You immediately receive 3 ISK you can spend, and you receive an additional 2 ISK worth of income from the Scordite on turn 2, bringing your total to 5.
This was being compared to SSO, which costs 1, and gives you nothing immediately, but 2 income on turn 2, and is generally considered to be one of the best starting locations.
If you want it to run more consistently, you run 4 SCE, 4 Scordite, 4 Pyroxes, 4 Emperor's Decree and 4 Ibis (or other 1-cost miner). This doesn't increase your odds of Scordite first turn, but it greatly reduces your odds of unusable scordite first turn and increases your odds of scordite second turn.
Post edited by: Ryuteki, at: 2007/03/08 15:36-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Buhallin
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 17:19Ryuteki wrote: Uh, no. Two cards. SCE (cost:1), Scordite (cost:1 + sacrifice SCE). Costs your 2 starting ISK. You immediately receive 3 ISK you can spend, and you receive an additional 2 ISK worth of income from the Scordite on turn 2, bringing your total to 5.
This was being compared to SSO, which costs 1, and gives you nothing immediately, but 2 income on turn 2, and is generally considered to be one of the best starting locations.
Ah, I see now. I missed your two-turn math.
The combo still seems too unreliable for my taste, even if it does give a nice early boost. For the same card use, I'd much rather have something that will continue to produce.
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Ryuteki
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/08 19:36Buhallin wrote:The combo still seems too unreliable for my taste, even if it does give a nice early boost. For the same card use, I'd much rather have something that will continue to produce.
Well, it continues to produce 2 (more if you are mining) but I fully acknowledge the combo's unreliability.
Out of curiosity, what gold structures are y'all running? {edit: err, make that ISK structures. Too many years of tournament L5R there...}
Post edited by: Ryuteki, at: 2007/03/08 19:38
-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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I am not a big fan of depending on Scordite, as I do not find it reliable. I usually carry one in my deck, not just for the speed, but just in case, to destroy an evil location my opponent has played into my outer region, like Ancestral Homeland or City of God. I know Star Chart Enterprises is a popular choice for sacking to Scordite, but first, I think it is unreliable, and that people find it works in practice because frankly, shuffling cards in sleeves is "runny" or "clumpy," that is, cards tend to stay near each other despite shuffling. I am a very good shuffler, and I have worked on my technique for shuffling sleeved cards, but I notice that even after a game or two, the cards seem clumped together, ships with ships, locations with locations, and so on. That is why I break up the clumps by dealing into several piles before I do my riffle shuffles. I suspect that a lot of fondness for Star Chart Enterprises may be due to clumpiness.
So for Scordite, I would prefer to sac a location that is useful in and of itself, like Veldspar, or Pyroxeres if I am mining.
And since you are not mining, you are not really getting the full benefit of Scordite, so you are paying too much for it. There are plenty of other locations that will yield more than 1 ISK income for 1 ISK cost. I often take a Sansha's Scout Outpost or two, especially if I am using By the Emperor's Decree. If you are holding regions, and it seems you are, then Interstellar Tradepost seems an obvious choice. Likewise, since regions will likely be in play, and often uncontrolled, a Tourist Resort might be good insurance.
Veldspar is good bread and butter, but honestly, Echoes of Gloom Bay and the aforementioned Tourists and Tradeposts generate at least as much income as Veldspar, but are much better draws after the first few turns.
The choice of 12 income locations, plus four Advanced Shipyards means that you probably almost always have a decent income, although I have never gotten good results from Thukker Pirate Haven.
I am a big fan of EMP Minefield on defense, especially since it can be activated before the battle phase begins, which is especially handy against Thrashers, which you seem vulnerable to. Central Fleet Operations is a good way to hasten the delivery of The Pizza of Doom, and goes well with Lonetrek.
Human Containment Facilities seems an odd choice for this deck, since most of your cards are twosies, not foursies. Or maybe that's the idea.
Ships are a matter of preference, and it is clear that you are looking for some big ships at the end to crush your enemy.
There are some things I do not understand about your choice of news. First, why no Information at a Cost? Four of those seem almost mandatory, as it essentially makes your deck smaller and so, tighter. Since you Feed On The Weak why not more Faulty Implant Manufacturers? If you are doing twosies of a lot of your news, why not Salvage Drones as sort of a "wild card" stand in for your already played news?
Anyway, a lot of this is personal preference, but I hope some of this is useful.
Smeelbo
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lipa666
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Re:Caldari Leech - 2007/03/11 08:17I had the same problem with shufling deck when cards are in sleeves and i also dealing them into 5 or 6 piles and agein and then typical shufle.
my amarr deck need mining (6 0/1 miners and 2 tormentors - propably one of the best mining ships) and then 4 pyro 4 scordite and only 2 SCE for additional speed and it works
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