Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/04 19:46Looking through the Minmatar starter now. The only cards that struck me as odd were the ones with Kamikaze. At least Breacher does one more damage at the cost of the ship, but Slasher and Probe actually do 2 less. Even to get at a ship that couldn't be targeted for some reason, it just doesn't seem worth it. Is there some situation I am not thinking of where Kamikaze is actually useful?
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Blatherskite
User Cruiser
Posts: 162
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/05 01:21If you attack a starbase you can kamikaze the base before the starbase owner can really do anything. 7 pts of kamikaze destroys an early starbase. However, I don't find that kind of blitz overly consistant.Blatherskite Caldari Propagandist
A PRINCE ought to have no other aim or thought, nor select anything else for his study, than war and its rules and discipline… - Machiavelli
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CrayNium
User Frigate
Posts: 40
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/05 03:58The other advantage is that it happens at the beginning of battle, before anything else. If you absolutely MUST get rid of something, kamikaze is very hard to stop, while normal damage is a bit easier to stop. Also, kamikaze targeting ignores patrols, so if your enemy is trying to protect weaker industrial ships with patrols, kamikazes can get in and gut their income without having to go through the defending ships.
Post edited by: CrayNium, at: 2006/11/05 03:59
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EvilMushroom
User Scout
Posts: 7
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/05 17:05CrayNium wrote: The other advantage is that it happens at the beginning of battle, before anything else.
Ah, this is the rule I was missing. I thought the damage went on the pile and wasn't resolved until the Damage Dealing Step. After re-reading the rules, I see that a pile also gets resolved during the Begin Battle Step. Now it makes a little more sense. Thanks.
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markof
User Scout
Posts: 2
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/09 12:15ok this is a quote of what i said in the question area on the subject something i dont get with what you explain if a sentry gun is involved it means that the battel takes place in a home region right ? so the kamikaze ship is on the attaking side right ? so the first thing going in the pile will be the kamikaze action since the atting player has initiative right ? so the deffending player is free to play is sentry gun ability on that pile and so to destroy the attaking ship before the resolution of kamikaze ???
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TheLion
User Frigate
Posts: 50
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/09 12:23Kamakazi seemed weak to me too, at first. Now I have a deck build to use the Heaven and Junkyard Dock, also Frailty tower. With my Kamakazis doing double DMG, it is usually well worth it.
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Calmdown
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 284
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/09 13:30Kamikaze is extremely powerful. If the values were any higher, then the blitz would be unstoppable as there is no way in the game to stop a ship Kamikaze'ing once it gets into an enemy region/home region.
It's a great tactical ability. Take for example, a Rifter attacking with other ships, against a defending Kestrel on ambush. Would you rather take 4+2 damage, or sacrifice your Rifter to take out the Kestrel? Now, imagine you have a Breacher instead, which is only costing 3. Kamikaze 2 = dead Kestrel. Throw in frailty tower, and you can take out every dangerous enemy ship in a fleet before they even have a chance to react.
It's not always the greatest blitz tool (though stabber+breacher can be insane) but it's a great part of the Minmatar arsenal.
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TheLion
User Frigate
Posts: 50
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/10 12:12If the values were any higher, then the blitz would be unstoppable as there is no way in the game to stop a ship Kamikaze'ing once it gets into an enemy region/home region.
This is incorrect. You CAN stop a ship from Kamakazing. To defend myself from Kamakazi ships, I deploy Crokite. Crokite is a location that allows the regions controller to sacrifice it to do 3 DMG to target ship. <ajority of Minmitar ships with Kamakazi have a defense of 3 or less.
Also, I use Kyonoke Pit for extra defense. With that region's -1/-1 to all ships in the region, it helps stop Minmitar ships like the breacher and slasher from entering, since they only have 1 defence, lol. I love telling the unsuspecting Minmitar player that the ships they just warped into Kyonoke pit are destroyed when they arrive. Hey, Slashers, and Breachers, what out for those asteroids.
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TaiSho JoJo
User Scout
Posts: 6
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/10 15:48TheLion wrote: Also, I use Kyonoke Pit for extra defense. With that region's -1/-1 to all ships in the region, it helps stop Minmitar ships like the breacher and slasher from entering, since they only have 1 defence, lol. I love telling the unsuspecting Minmitar player that the ships they just warped into Kyonoke pit are destroyed when they arrive. Hey, Slashers, and Breachers, what out for those asteroids. Where would you find such an "unsuspecting" player? To knowingly warp into an area like that...
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CrayNium
User Frigate
Posts: 40
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/11 07:47markof wrote: ok this is a quote of what i said in the question area on the subject something i dont get with what you explain if a sentry gun is involved it means that the battel takes place in a home region right ? so the kamikaze ship is on the attaking side right ? so the first thing going in the pile will be the kamikaze action since the atting player has initiative right ? so the deffending player is free to play is sentry gun ability on that pile and so to destroy the attaking ship before the resolution of kamikaze ???
That's correct.
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"At the beginning of the Battle Phase, you may sacrifice this ship to deal 2 damage to any target ship or starbase in this region."
The way this is written leads me to believe that sacrificing the ship is the "cost" of the effect. This would mean that a player can not stop the sacrificing of the ship which means the damage is always added to the stack.
Example 1: Breacher warps to Homestation of the enemy with Sentry Gun and begins an attack. Come the start of the battle step, he chooses to kamikaze, placing the breacher in his scrappile. Now the 2 damage is added to the stack. Now there is no valid target for sentry gun to fire at.
Example 2: Breacher warps to Homestation of the enemy with Sentry Gun and begins an attack. Come the start of the battle step, he chooses NOT to kamikaze at first, but the Sentry Gun opens fire, putting damage on the stack to destroy the Breacher. Now the Breacher decides to Kamikaze as he's losing the ship anyway, sacrificing and putting his 2 damage on the stack. As there is no target, the Sentry Gun's damage fails to resolve, wasting it.
This is how I interpret the timing of the Kamikaze effect. The Sacrifice happens IMMEDIATELY and the effect (damage) is then placed on the stack, making it an absolute pig to stop.
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Kamakazi's ability is that it happens b4 allmost everything else durring a battle phase.
However, if a player decides not to Kamakazi at the very begging, then he/she is subject to following the rules for applying DMg to the stack and then resolving it.
Therfore, the Breacher in your scenario #2 would be hit by 2 DMG from your Sentry Gun b4 the Breacher decided to Kamakazi. Taking the 2 DMG from the Senty Gun destroys the breacher. It cannot Kamakazi because it's destroyed. Making the decision to Kamakazi is allowed at anytime b4 or after the stack is resolved. Not while the stack is being resolved. I can't think of a reason I'd want to save a Kamakazi for after the stack is resolved, and don't understand why your oponet decided not to Kamakazi in the begging.
I may be wrong though, I have never been explained in detail what limitations are applied to Kamakazi, but I was told DMG was put on the stack, and cards could not be played while the stack was being resolved. That would include cards abilites. I couldn't sacrifice a Crokite to do DMG to a ship while the syack was being resolved. (Or could I?)
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Civi
User Cruiser
Posts: 121
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/11 20:35I thought it would work, as this is how I understood the timing:
Breacher passes - Sentry fires (damage ons tack, stack not resolved) - In response to this, Kamikaze is declared (we are still at beginning of battle) - Sac Breacher (another 2 damage put on stack) - Resolve stack (2 damage on dead breacher, 2 damage on target of breacher effect).
Surely this should work?
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TheLion
User Frigate
Posts: 50
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/11 21:34Read the Rules for KAMAKAZI, they are printed right on the card!
"At the beginning of the battle phase, you may sacrifice this ship deal X DMG to any target ship or starbase in this region."
Specificly, the part where it says, "At the beginning...."
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Civi
User Cruiser
Posts: 121
Re:Kamikaze seems very weak - 2006/11/11 22:08TheLion wrote: Read the Rules for KAMAKAZI, they are printed right on the card!
"At the beginning of the battle phase, you may sacrifice this ship deal X DMG to any target ship or starbase in this region."
Specificly, the part where it says, "At the beginning...."
Ok, I am probably not being clear, as there's a misunderstanding here, will break it down to clarify.
-Kamikaze occurs "at beginning opf battle phase" -Sentry gun's ability occur's at beginning of battle phase -All these effects take place during Battle Phase 1: Begin Battle Step. -Breacher is attacking and has initiative. -He chooses to play no action in this Begin Battle Step. He passes. -Sentry Gun gets initiative and fires, damage is now on the "pile" -Breacher has initiative again and there is 2 damage in the "pile". He chooses to Kamikaze (we are still at Begin Battle Step so it is legal, and Sentry gun took an action so he may react) -2 Damage goes on "pile" -Sentry Gun chooses to pass. -Breacher passes. -"Pile" resolves dealing 2 damage to Starbase and 2 damage from Sentry Gun is wasted. -Withdraw step begins...
From the way timing and pile resolution works, it is a perfectly legal tactic by the look of it. I have taken the "at the beginning..." restriction into account as all these actions happen in that step of Battle.
From the look of it, it seems there is no way to prevent a Kamikaze once the Battle Phase begins. Any action that the defender takes can be responded to with activating the Kamikaze ability.
From the deck I'm building now, all I have to do is have more Kamikaze in play than you have Starbase Shields and I should win.
That's damn strong, but challenging.
Post edited by: Civi, at: 2006/11/11 22:14
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