Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 07:58mikelosaurus wrote: Here's another one. Serpentis Drug Outlet says:
'At the beginning of battle, you may search your opponent's unplayed outer regions and put one into play for free. Enemy ships may not withdraw to that region this turn.' I thought you could only ever withdraw to regions you controled. The wording here seems to imply I'm wrong though.
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mikelosaurus
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 08:03Ryuteki wrote: In the case of a location like Serpentis Drug Outlet, it would trigger at the beginning of a battle in the region where the Outlet was played.
That's my interpretation too, but the wording is not explicit and I can see that new players might get confused by it. It would have been easy to have worded this more clearly.
Ryuteki wrote: And yes, the region would count against the one-per-turn limit,
Yes, checking the rules it does say 'Only one outer region can enter play each turn' which would apply to all players regardless of whose turn it is.
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rorik36
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 12:24Smugger wrote: mikelosaurus wrote: Here's another one. Serpentis Drug Outlet says:
'At the beginning of battle, you may search your opponent's unplayed outer regions and put one into play for free. Enemy ships may not withdraw to that region this turn.' I thought you could only ever withdraw to regions you controled. The wording here seems to imply I'm wrong though.
Nope:
From the Rulebook: Withdraw Step (II): Players may withdraw any number of their ships by warping them to their dock or to any regions that do not have enemy ships in them. ...
We thought the same thing for a couple of months.
Post edited by: rorik36, at: 2007/09/05 12:25
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Ryuteki
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 13:11mikelosaurus wrote: Ryuteki wrote: In the case of a location like Serpentis Drug Outlet, it would trigger at the beginning of a battle in the region where the Outlet was played.
That's my interpretation too, but the wording is not explicit and I can see that new players might get confused by it. It would have been easy to have worded this more clearly.
It actually is a meta-rule that needs to be a bit more clear in the rulebook, as it applies to all cards that trigger off of attack or battle.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Buhallin
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 14:42Ryuteki wrote: The set of "your opponents" must, as a set , pay you 1 ISK. I feel there is no ground to interpret this as 1 ISK per opponent if properly parsing the english language. If I said "your family owes you $10" you should not expect $10 from each family member, you should expect $10 total regardless of family size. Except using "your family" as an example is misleading, as it replaces a multiple ("your opponents") with a singular group definition ("family"). If I said "Guests must pay you $10", it would be a more proper comparison, and could go either way. Yes, I intentionally left off "Your" because it's possibly redundant in this case. While I do agree that yours is the likely interpretation, it's still more open than I'd like. You can comment on proper parsing of the English language when you provide a workable definition for "playable", mmKay? I would personally rule that the opponents did not need to agree as long as at least one of them was willing to pay the 1 ISK, as that seems to be the simplest interpretation, and seems to be in keeping with the storyline implications of blackmailing a group. The Warmachine rules guys have a simple, universal statement: "Fluff is not rules". There's a good reason for that. Personally, if I'm blackmailing a group of people, I might expect them all to pay, and pop it if even one didn't. More money, and peer pressure from the others. That's the problem with using fluff as rules - other people read fluff differently.
In keeping with what you think the storyline of the card is or not, you contradict your own statement above. If the payment is going to come from the group as a whole, then the ability must necessarily be activated by the group as a whole. You're trying to interpret it one way for payment, and another for activation. Even then, whatever the payment interpretation, "Your opponents" is all-inclusive. If one opts out, then "Your opponents" are not paying you - some of them may be, but as a whole they aren't. If you said "My guests want to go to Disneyland" when only half of them do, that's an untrue statement. That can't be the basis for the activation.
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Snooby
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 15:20Are we now going to get into a fight about "parsing" the english language? LOL
If that is the case, there are a shedload of cards in EVE that are "wrong".
For example
Exiled-007 Curse > Outer Region
X (isk): Target defending ship in this region gets +X (attack) until end of turn. Play this ability only once each turn.
Now then, fetch popcorn, sit in comfy chair - this may take a while
"...until end of turn" - this should be read as "..until the end of the turn". But wait, WHICH turn? The current turn? If so, why doesn't it say so?
"Play this ability only once each turn." This does not say "YOU MAY play this ability..." it says "PLAY this ability..." which is a directive and, if we follow it, then the ability HAS TO BE PLAYED each turn.
But wait....EACH TURN? So, it means it HAS to be played during EACH player's turn. It's going to get expensive!!!
So, after all that, WTF am I talking about? Basically, if you choose to interpret a card's wording using "strict grammatical rules" then you should do so for ALL cards, and not just pick and choose which ones give the best interpretation.
Also, campaigning for "correct English" on all cards is just going to lead to some very, very, teensy-weensy little fonts. Some of the cards in Exiled already have so many words that there was no room for Command Tabs!!!
I know - maybe cards should just bear a cost, affiliation, artwork and a name and we can just have everything else that should be on there in a nice, tidy ring-binder.
How does this help with interpreting the wording on Blackmail. Well, it doesn't - wait for the errata/ruling ;p
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Smugger
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 15:37Buhallin wrote: If you said "My guests want to go to Disneyland" when only half of them do, that's an untrue statement. I have to disagrea. As long as you don't specify "all my guests" or "some of my guests" it could be either one of the two. I'm not a native english speaker though so mabye I should just shut up and stay out of it
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Perhaps a more boolean one: "My students passed the class." Would you expect that this meant that all the students passed, or only some of them? Or perhaps something like "My students arrived safely." If Little Timmy got hit by a truck on the way over, that would be a strange statement... I think in a lot of ways it has to do with the intensity of the odd one out.
One other possibility is that we look at it as granting permission, rather than a trigger... "The students may leave the room" grants permission to everyone, which is inherently individual. This would work.
Overall, it's a horribly-worded card all around. It creates a new game mechanic without defining it well (or at all, really), it uses new terms for existent game mechanics rather than remaining consistent, and on top of it all it's a powerful enough card that it will almost certainly see play.
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Snooby
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/05 17:25A common "error" with the printed word is the lack, or misplacement, of emphasis.
"The students may leave the room" may mean several things, depending on which word(s) are emphasised.
The STUDENTS may leave the room - only students may leave. The students MAY leave the room - or they may stay. The students may LEAVE the room - but cannot enter. The students may leave THE room - and no other room. The students may leave the ROOM - but not the building.
Another factor worth considering is how language takes on a "local flavour".
"My students passed the class" usually means, in the USA for example, that "The students did not fail the subject".
In the UK, "My students passed the class" usually means "They walked straight past the class".
As another example, if "I said my mother is a dog", how many people interpret that as "my mother is ugly" and how many think I am a son of a B****?
Ambiguity causes confusion (for new players), suspicion (is a player deliberately misinterpreting a card to cheat?) and debate.
I choose, when designing, to introduce keywords for anything i think may be ambiguous. I explain a mechanic, at length, in the rulebook and then simply place keywords/reminder text on the cards themselves. In this way, not only do i have more space on my cards, but any mechanic-related errata only needs to be changed in the rulebook and the cards themselves remain unchanged.
there is always that 0.01% though...... ;p
Long post - sorry
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Ryuteki
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/06 00:11Buhallin wrote: Well, maybe that just highlights the ambiguity
Perhaps a more boolean one: "My students passed the class." Would you expect that this meant that all the students passed, or only some of them? Or perhaps something like "My students arrived safely." If Little Timmy got hit by a truck on the way over, that would be a strange statement... I think in a lot of ways it has to do with the intensity of the odd one out.
Actually, the more I think about this one, the more I like your interpretation better, such that all opponents must agree to pay as a group, then must come up with the 1 ISK as a group. It's just far more amusing. -Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Smugger
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/06 07:23Snooby wrote: I choose, when designing, to introduce keywords for anything i think may be ambiguous. I explain a mechanic, at length, in the rulebook and then simply place keywords/reminder text on the cards themselves. In this way, not only do i have more space on my cards, but any mechanic-related errata only needs to be changed in the rulebook and the cards themselves remain unchanged. More room for text on cards = good I just love the flavor text on cards and anything that leaves more space for it must be good
"He put WHAT in the warp core?"
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stevetheone
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/07 10:51Hope you guys are having fun with this. It is definately funny to read. Love Snoobys' post. They hit the spot. Can we expect to see 0.X ISK in the next set so that mutliple people can pay 1 ISK? As far as I'm concern the paying of 1 ISK indicates that any opponent may pay 1 ISK to halt the card for that turn.
As a rule of thumb unless a card says permanent about something it is only temporary. Otherwise several ships (e.g. Cormorant) going to get very large and powerful!We shall seed the stars with our scions and reap that harvest.
No expect the Spam, spam, spam, spam...
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Kat
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/07 18:08Snooby wrote: A common "error" with the printed word is the lack, or misplacement, of emphasis.
"The students may leave the room" may mean several things, depending on which word(s) are emphasised.
...
Long post - sorry
Nice post, though! Thanks
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Buhallin
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Re:Few Exiled Questions - 2007/09/07 18:26stevetheone wrote: As a rule of thumb unless a card says permanent about something it is only temporary. Otherwise several ships (e.g. Cormorant) going to get very large and powerful! There may be others, but Cormorant is a bad example here. Its boost is a constant ability which re-evaluates continuously. There's no memory of the boost, temporary or otherwise.
The problem with 'halt' is that the most common usage - especially to anyone like me who has a military background - is permanent, or at the very least until something explicitly restarts it. It was a very poorly-chosen word, especially when terminology already existed to do what they wanted it to do.
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