Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 02:39Angel Impaler reads: "When Angel Impaler is destroyed, you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand instead of placing it on the scrapheap."
There are probably similar "When destroyed" timings in the Core Set, but I didn't really consider them until I saw the Impaler. How do these abilities work?
"When" means it's a pending ability, which is placed on the pile when the necessary condition is met. If the pending trigger is "when destroyed", you have a paradox - the ability won't trigger until the ship is destroyed, but by the time it is destroyed the ability is no longer in play.
Put simply, it is not possible for the ability to be in play when its trigger is met, so it can never go off.
Am I missing something with the timing here? Or is this another one of those "Shut up Buhallin, you know how it's supposed to be played" issues?
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When it is destroyed and is being placed in the scrapheap , thats when you activate the ability and return it to your hand.
Thats so you cant trigger the ability "When" it is IN the scrapheap , only if its In Play and Going to the scrapheap. That also makes sure that you realize that you cant play this ability when you discard it and its going to the scrapheap aswell as you cant play the ability if its IN the scrapheap.
I dont see how you could word it any clearer and not have a whole page of text. Seems like a good statement. Though I am 1 not to try and read extra words into something.
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 05:04I understand how the card is SUPPOSED to work - I'm trying to figure out if it actually works that way within the rules, and I really don't think it does. It's mostly an issue of timing. Things happen in a specific order:
1. Ship is destroyed 2. "When destroyed" ability is triggered
The problem is that as part of (1), the ship leaves the table. So the ability is no longer in play. Again, the ability cannot trigger while the card is still in play, and it cannot trigger after it has left play.
About the only way that I can see that it might work is if the removal from the table is a separate activity, triggered by the destruction. Then the "remove from table" action would trigger at the same time as the "go to hand instead" action. But at the moment we don't have any such distinction in the rules. A card being destroyed is a single atomic action which involves removing it from play and placing it in the scrapheap. So, it's not possible for the "When destroyed" trigger to activate until the ship is on the scrapheap, where as you say it can't activate.
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Snooby
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 05:56Don't forget that if a card's text disagrees with the rules, the card wins.
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Bombadidaloo
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 06:00Snooby wrote: Don't forget that if a card's text disagrees with the rules, the card wins.
Exactly, and remember that cards' abilities can apply from areas they normally wouldn't be able to as long as they mention something that makes logical sense for them to do so. (ex: Hired Enforcers)
And to me the ability of Angel Impaler definitely makes logical sense as to how its ability is suppose to work and why it would work from an "out of play" region.
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Tour Pro
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 08:15I dont agree that "the ability is triggerd when the card is destroyed".
I was thinking about it after I had posted and its very clear to me and now that you posted again I see you adding something into it thats not there.
You have this thing for the pile. Ok lets deal with that. First the ability is triggered only if and only after the ship has been destroyed in combat (meaning , without saying , that it is "going" to the scrapheap from play and after combat has destroyed it. OK now after all those pile resolve , Look , the ship is going to the scrapheap , do you want to put that on a pile? OK there it is , Now that its there and going , Look , Ill activate the ability , Lets add that on the pile , OK lets wait , any other effects going on the pile? No? OK now lets resolve the pile , the effect resolves and the ship goes back to your hand and not the scrapheap and the effect of the ship going to the scrapheap no longer has a valid target.
Really , would the card have been better with that full explanation? It seemed very clear to me as its written. Please let me know if this train of thought helped you or where you lost me at and if im still missing what your seeing.
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Tour Pro
User Frigate
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 08:24Sweet , I read it again and again and yet again and have an idea.
What if it said "IF Angel Impaler WAS destroyed, you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand instead of placing it on the scrapheap."
That might be better. I dont know now , Ive over analized it now , hehe
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Snooby
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 08:43From the rulebook: Pending abilities start with ‘when’ or ‘at’. It means that when the required circumstances arise, the ability is played on the pile.
When Impaler is destroyed it's ability triggers and the ability is then placed on the pile. Whether or not the CARD is still "in play" or not does not matter at this point.
This may make it clearer:
If the ability said "AFTER impaler is destroyed.." then there may be a case for bringing the card back from the scrapheap later on, which is obvioulsy not what was intended.
If the ability said "BEFORE impaler is destroyed.." then players would be allowed to return the card to hand at any time.
So, if it doesnt happen BEFORE or AFTER it is destroyed, it must happen AT THE SAME TIME.
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CyberHare
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 09:44The text is pretty clear as it is. Text on the cards trumps the rules in the book so there are no timing issues.
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CaptnB
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 11:37From rulebook, it is explicitly written that a resolving pile that triggers an ability creates a 2nd pile. In that case, the damage dealing pile is resolving and if that ship takes more damage than it has shields, it is destroyed and the ability triggers. You resolve 2nd pile and voila!
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DTee
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 12:24CyberHare wrote: The text is pretty clear as it is. Text on the cards trumps the rules in the book so there are no timing issues.
Yes and no.
Yes the card must work, even if that means we have to adjust our understanding of the rules.
No you can't allow cards to trump the timing rules* as things get ugly really fast.
Vs has similar timing rules and had to introduce an exception for cards with abilities that trigger when the leave play. The equivalent fix here would result in the ship hitting the graveyard before its ability triggers but you still get the option to return it to hand.
The only quesiton of substance here is whether the card hits the graveyard before you get the option to return it or not and I'm struggling to think of (likely) scenarios where that's important.
DTee
* I know the rules document says that cards trump the rules. Believing this helps new players get their head round how CCG's work but it's not always true.
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 14:49Cards don't trump rules universally - they trump rules when they contradict those rules. It's an important distinction. If you can normally only warp a ship during your management phase, but a card says you can warp a ship at some other time, then the card wins.
The text of Angel Impaler doesn't contradict the timing rules, so the timing rules still win. "It won't work right if it doesn't" is not sufficient contradiction.
There are always fundamental rules that cards can't trump. The fact that a card in my hand says I can destroy an enemy ship doesn't trump the fact that I have to play that card to get the effect.
@CaptnB: What we may really have here is THREE piles. The first is damage, and as that resolves it destroys the ship, which is a second pile, and as that resolves the ability (might) trigger, creating a third.
@DTee: I think it's a very important question, actually... If the Impaler's ability can activate after the card has been destroyed but while it is still in play, then OTHER abilities can activate after the card has been destroyed but while it is still in play.
If destruction is a pile (the only reasonable way this might work as presented so far) then I can add things to that pile. So I might, for instance, allow battle damage to a ship to get the income from Insurance Fraud, and then play a Premature Retirement (or everyone's new favorite, Problem Solver) on top of the "Destroyed" pile. Ship comes back to my hand, and there's nothing left to destroy.
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DTee
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 16:13Buhallin wrote: If destruction is a pile (the only reasonable way this might work as presented so far) then I can add things to that pile.
My understanding is that during the damage step all damage is dealt and ships destruction is determined before you get the chance to play anything which suggests that the process happens outside the pile system*. For example, once a ship has dealt damage you don't get a chance to play Specialisation** to save it (like you would in MtG).
I really like the fact those kinds of tricks don't work in Eve, as they have always felt like cheating and it's very hard for new players to get their heads round them.
DTee
* This is similar to Vs where at the end of each combat the timing rules are suspended so that the results can be applied simultaniously.
** Which if played earlier would have reduced the damage the ship dealt (as it gives a ship -X/+X).
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/07 16:18<nod> I can buy that... But then we're back to how exactly abilities which trigger during this "timing-less" period are handled. If you can't play News or use abilities to save cards from when damage starts resolving to when destruction is done, how does the Impaler work?
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Ryuteki
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/08 07:22Buhallin wrote: About the only way that I can see that it might work is if the removal from the table is a separate activity, triggered by the destruction.
That's the way I read the relevant passage. See the definition of scrapheap: "This is your discard pile, where all cards go AFTER they have been destroyed, discarded..." etc. Emphasis mine.
And yes, this should allow strange VPR tricks if I read it correctly. I think there was an official comment on a similar problem on the boards though, I'll see if I can find it.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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