Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/12 18:36I'm still waiting to see someone explain how Problem Solver/Stubborn Mechanic can save a destroyed ship.
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/12 19:00A-1. Damage inflicted on ship. A-2. Damage pile resolves. Ship is reduced below 0 shields, and destroyed. Destruction starts new pile B.
B-1. Ship is destroyed. B-2. I play Problem Solver, targeting the ship. B-3. Pile B begins resolving. B-4. Problem Solver resolves, ship returns to my hand. B-5. 'Destroyed' resolves, but ship is no longer in play, so there's nothing to destroy.
Stubborn Mechanic PROBABLY couldn't save a ship after being destroyed, but there's a chance it might depending on the (still evolving) definition of what destruction means and how it's handled. When 'Destroyed' resolves, if the ship is no longer at 0 shields, is it a valid target for destruction? It's also a VERY long-shot scenario, since there would have to be a compelling reason for you to have not played the Stubborn Mechanic pre-destruction (maybe an effect that lets you draw when a ship is destroyed? So Ship A goes boom first, you draw a Stubborn Mechanic, and play it to save Ship B ).
Post edited by: Buhallin, at: 2007/09/12 19:02
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Snooby
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/12 19:56All this is based on the assumption that you can now, for some reason, target a destroyed ship.
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/12 21:00Is there some rule that says you can't target a destroyed ship?
But if you are to assume that you cannot, you now run into your own "But then it doesn't work!" argument, as Narrow Escape cannot function unless it can target a ship which has already been destroyed.
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Snooby
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/12 22:23Actually, it functions if played before a ship is destroyed during combat, not after it. But you knew that ;p
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 00:03Actually, I didn't - I was misremembering the wording. I wouldn't have said so if I knew that, and I don't appreciate the implication that I'd lie to score points here. I may ask leading questions at times in order to make a point, but I've never made a statement I knew to be false.
But the original question remains - can you find a rule which actually says a destroyed ship is an invalid target? There's a specific rule preventing a docked ship from being a target, but none for a destroyed one. So long as the ship is still in play, it's a legal target, unless you can find something that says otherwise. If you're going to argue that the ship would not be in play during B-2 above, then that creates the original problem where the Impaler would not be in play to trigger its own ability.
Look, Snooby, it's good that you're engaged in the rules discussions, but if you're going to make assertions it would probably be good to back them up with actual rules. You seem very fond of making statements without anything to support them. If you'll provide the rules which support your points, at the very least you may correct yourself before you make an incorrect statement, which will save the rest of us the effort of doing so.
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Brootal
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 01:01I don't like the idea of a pile for destroyed ships, as already stated it breaks a lot of things. While it does help with news cards, it doesn't actually help with the Angel Impaler's ability, if destrying a ship creates a new pile, you can NOT then add the Impaler's ability to that pile, it is NOT an executed ability or news, so it remains broken.
Also from the FAQs:
Are ships destroyed immediately when they receive damage equal to or higher than their shield?
Yes. They are removed from play and placed on their owner's scrapheap. But note that damage resolves from the pile just like an ability or a card that is being played, so even if the ship has been dealt damage you can still save it by playing a card such as Stubborn Mechanic before the damage resolves.
To me this implies a destroyed card is no longer in play and cannot be targeted (after the damage resolves)
Also I note that the Impaler's ability does not "Target" so it's ability has no problems getting around it being on the scrapheap. To my mind there is a slight problem with the wording
When Angel Impaler is destroyed, you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand instead of placing it on the scrapheap. probably should have read: When Angel Impaler is destroyed, you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand. when it is destroyed, it places a pending ability on a new pile allowing you the option of paying and returning it to your hand, the only problem with the wording is the implication that the ability resolves between the destruction and it hitting the scrapheap.
Of course this intepretation does raise it's own issues, the way I'm intepreting it here does change some things which the original wording implies it never hits the scrapheap.
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Buhallin
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 02:26So we seem to have come back around to the original issue... I think Brootal's read of the FAQ entry (which I'd missed) is correct. So, the Impaler's ability would seem to not function within the structure of the rules as it is.
As a tangent, what about the Bellicose? Its ability seems identical to the Impaler as far as the trigger (albeit with, yet again, completely different wording).
<shrug> I dunno. I'm getting uncomfortable with the directions this is going. It seems we can't resolve this without creating a whole host of new issues. I'd almost rather just make the Impaler useless and move on...
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Brootal
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 02:54I'd agree the Bellicose's ability while worded differently is as far as I can see at the moment functionally the same. The problem I think is with the word "instead" which implies that a second pile can be created and resolved while the first pile is still in the midst of resolving.
Having the Impaler or Bellicose hit the scrapheap before returning to a hand, in my mind causes a lot less issues than any other solution as there are not currently a lot of cards that worry about cards going onto the scrapheap. The main one I can think of at the moment is if (cardname) is on top of your scrapheap, and then an Impaler is placed on top of it and removed, may cause other ships to be destroyed as it's abilities cease to function momentarily.
Post edited by: Brootal, at: 2007/09/13 02:55
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stevetheone
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 10:33The other alternative is that such abilities trigger before damage is resolved but after targetting, e.g. When Angel Impaler is targeted with enough damage from ships that would destroy it pay 3 ISK and return it to your hand. That could also work for narrow escape. The only question this opens is whether those ships who have targetted can then re-target other ships as a result.We shall seed the stars with our scions and reap that harvest.
No expect the Spam, spam, spam, spam...
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mikelosaurus
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 13:26stevetheone wrote: The other alternative is that such abilities trigger before damage is resolved but after targetting
That would be my reasoning - i.e. there's a window between the Target Step and the Damage-Dealing Step.
That could also work for narrow escape.
And the Problem Solver?
The only question this opens is whether those ships who have targetted can then re-target other ships as a result.
I would say no, as the Target Step is over. A new pile of events is being resolved between the Target Step and the Damage-Dealing Step.
Post edited by: mikelosaurus, at: 2007/09/13 13:28
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DTee
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 14:37mikelosaurus wrote: The only question this opens is whether those ships who have targetted can then re-target other ships as a result.
I would say no, as the Target Step is over. A new pile of events is being resolved between the Target Step and the Damage-Dealing Step.<br><br>Post edited by: mikelosaurus, at: 2007/09/13 13:28
I completely agree with Mikelo on this one. Once a ship has declared it's target that's it and whether it gets returned to hand or turns out to have a stubborn mechanic shouldn't be able to change that.
If I've followed this discussion correctly, it looks like you can use isk gained from Insurance Fraud to return an Angel Impaler to hand but not to play Narrow Escape. That's quite an important distinction.
DTee
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"When a ship is destroyed, begin a new pile with "Move [card] to scrapheap." as the first item on the pile and then work through a few examples:
Bellicose "When Bellicose is to be put on your scrapheap from play, you may pay 6 ISK to place it in your hand instead." Scenario A Bellicose is destroyed, start new pile
A-1. Move to Bellicose scrapheap A-2. Pay 6 ISK to return card to hand. Pass-pass
Pile Resolves. A-2. Move card to hand. A-1. Fizzles
Scenario B Bellicose is destroyed, start new pile
A-1. Move to Bellicose to scrapheap Pass-pass
Pile Resolves A-1. Move Bellicose to scrapheap.
Outcome: Bellicose is returned to hand only if owner pays 6 ISK.
Angel Impaler (AI) "When Angel Impaler is destroyed,you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand instead of placong it on the scrapheap."
Scenario A Angel Impaler is destroyed, start new pile.
A-1. Move AI to scrapheap A-2. Pay 3 Isk to return card to hand. Pass-Pass
Pile Resolves A-2. move card to hand A-1. fizzles
Scenario B Angel Impaler is destroyed, start new pile.
A-1. Move AI to scrapheap Pass-pass
Pile resolves A-1. Move AI to scrapheap.
Outcome: Angel Impaler is returned to hand only if owner pays 3 ISK.
Angel Impaler/Narrow Escape Scenario A Angel Impaler is destroyed, start new pile.
A-1. Move AI to scrapheap A-2. Narrow Escape - ILLEGAL, target has already been destroyed. Pass-pass
Pile Resolves A-1. move AI to scrapheap.
Outcome: Narrow Escape cannot be played to save destroyed ship.
Angel Impaler/Stubborn Mechanic
Scenario A (SM CAN target detroyed ship) Angel Impaler is destroyed, start new pile.
A-1. Move AI to scrapheap A-2. Stubborn Mechanic Pass-pass
Pile resolves A-2. Ship now +2 shields A-1. Move AI to scrapheap.
Scenario B (SM CANNOT target destroyed ship) Angel Impaler is destroyed, start new pile.
A-1. Move AI to scrapheap A-2. Stubborn Mechanic - ILLEGAL, target has already been destroyed. Pass-pass
Pile resolves A-1. Move AI to scrapheap.
Outcome: Stubborn Mechanic cannot save destroyed ship. Angel Impaler/The Problem Solver
Scenario A (TSP CAN target destroyed ship) Angel Impaler is destroyed, start new pile.
A-1. move AI to scrapheap. A-2. The Problem Solver Pass-pass
Pile Resolves A-2. Return AI to owner's hand A-1. fizzles
Scenario B (TPS CANNOT target destroyed ship) A-1. move AI to scrapheap. A-2. The Problem Solver - ILLEGAL, target has alreay been destroyed. Pass-pass
Pile Resolves A-1. Move AI to scrapheap.
Outcome. The Problem Solver may save ship if destroyed ships are targetable.
Conclusion. The only card which poses a problem here is, ironically, The Problem Solver. The outcome depends solely on whether or not destroyed ships can be targetted. Personally, I always go with No, they cannot.
Let me know if there are any other combo's/blatant errors i havent noticed and i'll take a look at them.
My apologies to anyone who finds this post a little on the short side due to use of abbreviations
Post edited by: Snooby, at: 2007/09/13 15:48
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Brokkur Helfari
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Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 20:13Bulhallin wrote: Angel Impaler reads: "When Angel Impaler is destroyed, you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand instead of placing it on the scrapheap."
There are probably similar "When destroyed" timings in the Core Set, but I didn't really consider them until I saw the Impaler. How do these abilities work?
"When" means it's a pending ability, which is placed on the pile when the necessary condition is met. If the pending trigger is "when destroyed", you have a paradox - the ability won't trigger until the ship is destroyed, but by the time it is destroyed the ability is no longer in play.
Put simply, it is not possible for the ability to be in play when its trigger is met, so it can never go off.
Am I missing something with the timing here? Or is this another one of those "Shut up Buhallin, you know how it's supposed to be played" issues?
Pending abilities that trigger during pile resolution start a new pile after the first is resolved. The active player decides in which order these pending abilities go on the new pile. When the second pile resolves, you have the option of paying 3 ISK to return Angel Impaler to your hand. Obviously, the Angel Impaler is already in the scrapheap at this point, so the correct wording should be “…to your hand from your scrapheap.” That is the intent of the ability and I apologize that no one caught this before press. I hope this issue hasn’t affected play for any of you.
Best regards, Petur ThorarinssonLead Designer EVE: The Second Genesis
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Snooby
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Posts: 116
Re:Angel Impaler timing - 2007/09/13 20:22"When Angel Impaler is destroyed, you may pay 3 ISK to return it to your hand from your scrapheap."
NO!! Tell me i didn't just read that?!
Worms, can, open.
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