Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/09 20:05Don't worry folks, this isn't another debate about the "battle" issue, it's about the Outer Region issue.
SERPENTIS DRUG OUTLET ocation > Serpentis
Blah.. [G] At the beginning of "whatever battle means", you may search your opponent's unplayed outer regions and put one into play for free. Enemy ships may not withdraw to that region this turn.
OK, now I know that RedX and Ryuteki, among others, have commented on this card, but to be honest it's been nagging at me.
The "official" line seems to be that choosing and playing one of your opponent's regions and putting it into play counts as that (opponent) player's outer region play for their turn.
I disagree. Let me say why.
Firstly, in the rulebook it says that the mother of all rules is that if a card contradicts the rules, the card wins.
Secondly, from other games as well, when two cards contradict, one saying you CANT and one saying you CAN, teh CANT card wins.
Thirdly, the card says "YOU may ...and put into play". Yep, YOU, not your opponent, YOU ARE THE ONE PLAYING THE REGION.
Fourthly, if you have already played an outer region card, the rules say you cannot play another - this card says you CAN.
Fifthly, the card does not actually STATE whether the card comes into play as one of YOUR regions, or one of your Opponent's regions.
Have a look at Spread of Influence.
SPREAD OF INFLUENCE NEWS
[G][A] You may instead search target opponent's unplayed outer regions and pay to play one of them as if it was one of your unplayed outer regions.
It EXPLICITLY states that you play the card as one of "YOUR UNPLAYED outer regions". All normal rules apply - if you already have played an outer region, you CANT do this. Also, it states that the region comes into play under YOUR control.
Why is one card so explicit and the other so vague?
Sixthly (are these even valid words?), it says that enemy ships cannot withdraw there this turn, meaning that your choosing to play an outer region (possibly to the benefit of your opponent) is offset by not allowing them access to the region for a turn.
So, having looked at all the ins and outs of this card, trying to work out not just how it works as written but also what the original intention of this card was, i cannot help but feel that this card does NOT, under either interpretation, count as an outer region play for the turn for EITHER player.
Maybe i am missing something, there are a lot of contradictions in my analysis, so dont just reply "The official ruling is that it means XXXXXX", (I have known official rulings to be reversed in the past) look at it and see if you think i'm making sense, or even point out where the error is in my thinking.
Cheers
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Bombadidaloo
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/09 20:37My thoughts too lean towards the outer region not counting as the one-per-turn limit for either player. But that point is moot during your opponent's turn, because:
-players can only play outer regions regularly during their management phase -Serpentis Drug Outlet triggers after the management phase, at the start of the battle phase. -Thus, if you use it to play an outer region during the opponent's turn, either A: your opponent will have already played one that turn, or B: your opponent will have already passed the time in which he/she could play one that turn.
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Bombadidaloo
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/09 20:39However, a bit that I'm still confused on about this card (sorry if I missed the answer to my question somewhere):
Can you use the ability if there are no battles? If there is more than one battle, can you use this ability at the beginning of each battle? And finally, does this ability ONLY WORK if it is in the SAME REGION as the battle taking place? (I suppose answering that last question would answer them all )
Post edited by: Bombadidaloo, at: 2007/09/09 20:40
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Snooby
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/09 20:49Q: Can you use it if there are no battles? A: No, because if there are no battles there is no Battle phase.
Q: If there is more than one battle, can you use this ability at the beginning of each battle? A: No. To me "at the beginning of battle" means at "between Management phase and End phase" i.e. you can only use it once, per copy of the card, per turn.
Q: And finally, does this ability ONLY WORK if it is in the SAME REGION as the battle taking place? A: No, i believe it works from any region.
That's how i understand things :/
Post edited by: Snooby, at: 2007/09/09 20:50
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Buhallin
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/09 23:26I think you're misreading the restrictive rule. It says this:
Only one outer region can enter play each turn.
That means it's one, by whatever means, no matter who plays it or when during the turn it is played.
The only question left then is whether the Outlet's ability is considered to contradict the above rule. I don't think it does, because it doesn't say it does. As we were discussing in the other thread, cards only override basic rules if they do so directly. The Outlet explicitly overrides when you can put an outer region into play (during the battle), how you do so (place it into play, for free), and where the card comes from (your opponent's regions rather than your own). It doesn't say you can override the one per turn rule, so I don't think you can.
I noticed something even more interesting with this, which I'll broach in another thread...
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Ryuteki
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/10 01:56Snooby wrote: Q: Can you use it if there are no battles? A: No, because if there are no battles there is no Battle phase.
Correct. "IF you attacked one or more enemy regions by warping your ships to them during your management phase, all attacks must be resolved with a series of battle phases before the end phase can begin."
Q: If there is more than one battle, can you use this ability at the beginning of each battle? A: No. To me "at the beginning of battle" means at "between Management phase and End phase" i.e. you can only use it once, per copy of the card, per turn.
Incorrect. You may use this ability in any battle in which you are playing Gallante and control a Serpentis Drug Outlet in the embattled region. Of course, once you have used this ability to bring an outer region into play, you have triggered the rule which states "Only one new outer region can enter play each turn." Not "can be played" and not "can be played by you," but "can enter play." Note that this means your opponent can prevent you from using the ability to do anything beyond looking through his regions, simply by playing one during his management phase.
Q: And finally, does this ability ONLY WORK if it is in the SAME REGION as the battle taking place? A: No, i believe it works from any region.
Incorrect again, I'm afraid. Any ability which triggers off of "battle" or "attack" is only usable if it is present in the embattled region. This was clarified at gencon by the lead designer (Brokkur Helfari aka Petur) and I am hopeful that the official wording of this clarification will be put into the Rulebook Clarifications. It was covered for Target Step, but not explicitly in the rulebook for general ability targeting.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Brootal
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/10 02:59My reading on drug outlet is it counts as the one per turn, The rules state only one may enter per turn and the card does not overrule that rule.
however, by reading the card if I search my opponent's outer regions I must put one into play.
However if I can't put one into play due to restrictions, can I still search their outer regions and fail to put one into play?
A similar question arises with SPREAD OF INFLUENCE, can I choose not to play one of my opponent's outer regions? The card does not say "you may then play one", it just says "and pay to play one"
Also I'll just point out in the OP, under spread it was said (and I don't think yet corrected) Also, it states that the region comes into play under YOUR control. It doesn't say any such thing all outer regions come into play uncontrolled, you must warp ships there to gain control of it
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Ryuteki
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/10 05:28Brootal wrote: However if I can't put one into play due to restrictions, can I still search their outer regions and fail to put one into play?
Sure, is there a valid reason to think you couldn't? It's not really different from playing Faulty Implant Manufacturer when your opponent only has one card, I'd say.
A similar question arises with SPREAD OF INFLUENCE, can I choose not to play one of my opponent's outer regions? The card does not say "you may then play one", it just says "and pay to play one"
This is a slightly ambiguous card wording, but I think the key phrase is "as if it was one of your unplayed outer regions." It's all about where you leave the emphasis though. I interpret it as giving you the ability to do two things you couldn't do before: Search your opponents regions as though they were your own, and pay to play them as though they were your own. You aren't forced to play your own, therefore you aren't forced to play theirs. One man's opinion. -Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Brootal
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/10 06:03I completely agree that's how I would read them by default, but I "could" read them the other way as well.
The main thing about these cards I am thinking at the moment is more that knowing what outer regions your opponent has chosen for their deck is probably the most useful ability, more so than actually playing or putting them into play.
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Snooby
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Re:Serpentis Drug Outlet - 2007/09/10 14:38I didn't notice before, having only listened to it once a long time ago, but the online demo clearly states that "At the beginning of battle" means "at the beginning of each battle step."
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