Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 05:11I have a question about how mutiny works against targets that are in the opponent's dock, assembling, once the news' duration is reached.
Consider this example:
- Opponent plays a viable ship, and you immediately respond by playing mutiny on it.
- The ships goes into the dock and begins assembling. Assumedly this doesn't 'break' mutiny's target.
- For whatever reason (the scope, labour quarters, lost deliveries etc.) the enemy ship is still assembling when mutiny reaches duration 1.
What happens in this situation?
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Snooby
User Cruiser
Posts: 116
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 05:33Wild Guess: You gain permanent control of it and, er, withdraw it to your dock?
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Kaemonn
Moderator Moderator
Posts: 88
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 08:01According to the rules: "When you play a ship from your hand, it is docked inside your starbase....Docked ships cannot be targeted, and are therefore mostly safe from your opponents; however, their abilities do not apply unless stated otherwise"
That means Mutiny cannot target an assembling ship.New sig image in progress...
Lead Moderator, Coffee runner of Kieron and AgentZero
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Brootal
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 490
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 08:25The question is when you play a ship does it create a pile. As far as I'm aware, the current thinking is every action creates or adds to a pile. Does the rules text given above over rule that and there is no pile for playing a ship?
If there is a pile:
Cards on a pile are considered in play.
Cards on the pile are not docked (You don't want cards being in 2 different places/zones/whatever at the same time, that would be a nightmare)
Therefore they can be targeted before they resolve (unless they have rules that say they can't)
Post edited by: Brootal, at: 2007/09/24 08:31
The administrator has disabled public write access.
There can still be other situations where it could be targetted. The use of Scythe's ability, for example, could cause it to be Mutinied while in assembly.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
DTee
User Cruiser
Posts: 222
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 11:14Ships must use the Pile or Amarr wouldn't be able to destroy them with cards like Depleated resources.
Being able to Mutiny a ship on the Pile would be very strong. It feels wrong but I'm not aware of any ruling that would stop it atm.
DTee
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Onyx Verde
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 663
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 12:43Wasnt there a recent rule change that sez you check the intended target when the news / ability resolves, as well as when it's played? So basically, even if you could hit the ship with Mutiny when it's on the pile, by the time Mutiny resolves it will fizzle out becuz the targetted ship is still in assembly (docked) and as such is immune.============================ "There is always Hope...." - Elessar Telcontar ============================
The administrator has disabled public write access.
I believe the ruling was that you recheck the legality of targets when the news resolves (ie moves from the pile to being in play) but that you don't recheck when their duration affects resolve.
DTee
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Jezzail
User Scout
Posts: 6
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 13:06You can target ships with news as they are being played, according to the Q&A section.
Resolving a pile is different from a news card's duration tab activating. Even if the target is checked again when the pile resolves, the mutiny should still go through assuming that it isnt countered or it's target destroyed.
I think that if the news' target was rechecked at each duration step, this would cause a lot of problems with existing cards. You could just dock your ships to avoid mutiny/dead or alive etc. and Remnants of Vak'Atioth's card draw would just not work.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Ryuteki
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 679
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 13:12Brootal wrote: The question is when you play a ship does it create a pile. As far as I'm aware, the current thinking is every action creates or adds to a pile. Does the rules text given above over rule that and there is no pile for playing a ship?
If there is a pile:
Cards on a pile are considered in play.
Cards on the pile are not docked (You don't want cards being in 2 different places/zones/whatever at the same time, that would be a nightmare)
Therefore they can be targeted before they resolve (unless they have rules that say they can't)<br><br>Post edited by: Brootal, at: 2007/09/24 08:31
Depleted Resources and Exiled from the Empire both target a card "AS it is being played" which I think forms the difference. Once it *is* played, it still forms a pile, but is considered to be In Dock. AS it is being played would, in my opinion, provide a special timing window, otherwise such phrasing wouldn't need to be used. This is just a quick opinion as I run off to work.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Brootal
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 490
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 13:54News (and whatever else) now check their target is legal at two stages.
When they are played, and when the news resolves.
In the situation given, the ship is on the pile, mutiny is played (ship is a valid target) mutiny resolves (ship is still a valid target) ship resolves into dock, (no longer a valid target but that doesn't matter anymore)
Other news with duration has a precedent that it remains in play even after it's target is invalid:
Mutiny has targeted a ship, when the duration effect goes onto a pile/resolves I don't think by the wording it re-checks target validity, you are not targeting anything, it is already specified.
I believe Depleted Resources/Exiled's wording is to specifically state they can only destroy a card on the pile, NOT one that is already in play. I don't think there is a special window here.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Brootal
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 490
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 13:58Jezzail wrote: I think that if the news' target was rechecked at each duration step, this would cause a lot of problems with existing cards. You could just dock your ships to avoid mutiny/dead or alive etc. and Remnants of Vak'Atioth's card draw would just not work. Yep, I'm sure we had that discussion a while ago, It depends on how the card is worded, it can be worded either way.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Buhallin
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 514
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 19:24Interesting. So if I'm reading this right, the following statements are true:
- Mutiny can target a ship as it is played - The assembly status of the ship won't affect Mutiny's duration - The docked status of the ship won't affect Mutiny's duration - When Mutiny hits I, the ship switches controllers - Nothing else happens at that point - My ship is docked in my opponent's starbase - I cannot undock the ship without attacking my opponent's home region
The last two haven't really been talked about, but there's nothing that prohibits me from having a ship in my opponent's dock... Both would seem to be valid statements.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Snooby
User Cruiser
Posts: 116
Re:Mutiny and assembling ships - 2007/09/24 21:30The ship is no longer under your control so you couldn't undock it anyway.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
If I control a ship in your dock, it's stuck. They added some text in the Exiled rules that I hadn't noticed - you can only warp a ship from your dock to your home region. So you couldn't move the ship because it wasn't your dock, and your opponent couldn't move it because it isn't his ship. And nobody can target it because it's in dock, so it's stuck there forever.
Fun!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
