Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/26 13:10Hey guys, I was thinking about some new deck and stumbled over a little problem.
Let's say I want to use "Concord Escort" with "Blood Apostle". After paying 10 ISK that Apostle is put into play fully assembled and with Sentry on it. But does his "when Blood Apostle becomes fully assembled you must sacrifice a ship" ability activates? Or do you only have to sacrifice another ship when you rotate your Apostle the last time during assembly step?
And yeah, same question would also occur for "Mastermind" I think.Nothing is as simple as it looks.
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a) Blood Apostle is brought into play fully assembled, therefore it must have come from somewhere (as opposed to being miraculously incarnated) and conceptually may have been revealed from hiding (in which case it's assembly process has taken place and, conceptually again, another ship elsewhere has already been sacrificed).
Alternatively, b) Blood Apostle IS miraculously incarnated and, therefore, did not undergo any form of assembly process and so it's ability does not trigger.
Also, the phrase "becomes fully assembled" implies that at a previous stage of existence it was partially assembled. Concord Escort effectively allows Blood Apostle to make the jump from "non-existent" to "existent" without any form of "partial existence".
On the other hand, logic and reasoning do not always apply to CCGs, but i will stick my a "No"
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For a while, we've had the "Drop a Mammoth into Serpentis Prime to finish a few ships" combo. The wording there is identical, and hasn't caused any concern before this.
I think the reasoning works, too. "Fully Assembled" would seem to be a state which basically means a ship may be used and moved. If I put a ship into play "fully assembled", then it has become "fully assembled". Nowhere does the "fully assembled" trigger say that the state only applies if the ship was not fully assembled a moment before.
Here's another question: If any ship in usable play (i.e. not assembling) is NOT "fully assembled", then what qualifies as making a ship fully assembled? Is it when it completes its last rotation during the assembly step? Is it when it isn't assembling any more? Is a ship with 0 Assembly ever "fully assembled"? What if I use Labor Quarters to get an extra rotation? What if I use Mammoth to insta-assemble it? Things get complicated quickly
If "fully assembled" is a state of a ship, I think everything works out nicely.
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crimsongrove
User Scout
Posts: 9
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/26 19:36I think the issue here is whether the ship becomes assembled or comes into play already assembled, if I understand correctly. Therefore the ship never actually "became" assembled? Or am I just being thick?
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Buhallin
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Posts: 489
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/26 23:10Not being thick The issue is what "fully assembled" means, which is decidedly fuzzy.
But after pondering it a bit, I think it's a state. If it were an action, then "becomes fully assembled" would be a very strange phrase.
So, if it's a state, then a ship "becomes fully assembled" at the first moment when it is fully assembled. Its previous state - assembling, in hand, etc - would seem to be irrelevant in this case.
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Blood Apostle is brought into play in a state of full assembly without an assembly action.
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Buhallin
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Posts: 489
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/27 05:09"becomes fully assembled" is not an action. Nowhere is this defined as an action. The wording on cards such as Mammoth says "you may hasten the assembly of up to two ships in your dock so that they are fully assembled", or something similar.
As soon as a card enters the state of being fully assembled, it has become fully assembled. I'd be curious how you think a ship can be fully assembled without ever "becoming fully assembled."
You're still working against precedent here, too... The Mammoth+Sansha's Nation trick has been accepted for a long time. If you're going to argue against that, then you should probably try and back up your arguments a bit. What makes you think "becomes fully assembled" is an action?
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stevetheone
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Posts: 540
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/27 11:48I would go with that coming in fully assembled does trigger abilities linked to that state. I can't see any major reason why there should be any difference between a ship coming into play bypassing assemble and one that has assembled in this regards. In both cases the ships has become fully assembled, they where just using different methods of doing so.We shall seed the stars with our scions and reap that harvest.
No expect the Spam, spam, spam, spam...
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Snooby
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Posts: 109
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/27 14:51Buhalin wrote: "becomes fully assembled" is not an action. Nowhere is this defined as an action.
Become: verb Verb: The part of speech that expresses existence, action, or occurrence in most languages. Existence: A thing that exists; an entity. Action: something done or performed; act; deed. Occurrence: something that happens; event; incident
To become fully assembled requires an action.
Buhalin wrote: I'd be curious how you think a ship can be fully assembled without ever "becoming fully assembled."
Snooby wrote:
Reasoning:
a) Blood Apostle is brought into play fully assembled, therefore it must have come from somewhere (as opposed to being miraculously incarnated) and conceptually may have been revealed from hiding (in which case it's assembly process has taken place and, conceptually again, another ship elsewhere has already been sacrificed).
Alternatively,
b) Blood Apostle IS miraculously incarnated and, therefore, did not undergo any form of assembly process and so it's ability does not trigger.
Also, the phrase "becomes fully assembled" implies that at a previous stage of existence it was partially assembled. Concord Escort effectively allows Blood Apostle to make the jump from "non-existent" to "existent" without any form of "partial existence".
Buhalin wrote: The Mammoth+Sansha's Nation trick has been accepted for a long time. If you're going to argue against that, then you should probably try and back up your arguments a bit. What makes you think "becomes fully assembled" is an action?
I assume you mean the "Mammoth & Serpentis Prime trick".
Mammoth: When mammoth becomes fully assembled you may hasten the assembly of up to two ships in your dock so that they are fully assembled.
Serpentis Prime: When you play a ship, you may place it fully assembled into this region. If that ship leaves this region, it is destroyed.
Looking closely at this "trick" we can see it's not actually a trick at all.
From Rulebook SHIPS When you play a ship from your hand, it is docked inside your starbase.
Ships with no assembly tabs come into play fully assembled.
Ships are played from hand into the dock. Ships with no assembly tabs are already in a state of full assembly.
Serpentis Prime says "..you may place..", not "...you may play.."
So, a player conceptually plays Mammoth from his hand into the dock (whereupon it is now partially assembled) but then chooses to place it in Serpentis Prime where it now becomes fully assembled, triggering it's ability.
If Serpentis Prime said "...you may play..." then I would argue that it was wrong. However, as it says "place" i have no argument with it.
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Well, it has been awhile since I played my last game, so I simply forgot about Mammoth+Serpentis. And you are right Buhallin, I never questioned that Combo, too. Both of them use the same wording, so I agree to you and all the other guys who said "yes" to my question.Nothing is as simple as it looks.
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Buhallin
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Posts: 489
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/28 22:54Become is not a defined game action. There are a great many verbs which are not defined in terms of the game.
And I didn't mean fluff reasoning - that's irrelevant. What I meant is that if you accept that 'fully assembled' is a state, and that any usable ship must exist in this state, then at some point in the past the ship must have 'become fully assembled', because it was not before, regardless of what the previous state was.
Please stick to the rules. Fluff has no place in this discussion, and dictionary definitions suffice only in the absence of defined rules (such as possible game actions).
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Becomes fully assembled is a change of state (not an action)
When the ship is not in play it has no state, as the ship comes into play, the ships status changes from "not defied" to "fully assembled". I had forgotten the Mammoth+Serpentis combo also, never used it myself.
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Snooby
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Posts: 109
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/29 00:01And I didn't mean fluff reasoning - that's irrelevant. What I meant is that if you accept that 'fully assembled' is a state, and that any usable ship must exist in this state, then at some point in the past the ship must have 'become fully assembled', because it was not before, regardless of what the previous state was.
I agree with that and said so (and quoted myself saying so). I even quoted some rules for you. I even said that I could be wrong so I see no need for the verbal attack.
I have given MY reasoning as to why I interpret the cards the way I do. If I am wrong then I'm am wrong, but I would like to have it explained to me in a manner I can understand and not just be told to shut up like a naughty schoolboy.
If it can be explained in a manner I cannot disagree with, or an Official Rules Expert says I'm wrong, with then I will accept it. Until then I would request that you withhold the attacks until you are certain I am deserving of them.
I still can't see how the two combo's are considered "identical".
The Mammoth/Serpentis combo is (following the rulebook as I interpret it):
Undefined State (in hand) -> Partially Assembled (brought into play) -> Fully Assembled (placed in Serpentis).
The combo Concord/Apostle combo is: Undefined State (in hand) -> Fully Assembled (brought into play)
So, my "argument" is still; Is Apostle brought into play and becomes fully assembled, or is a pre-assembled Apostle brought into play. The former would trigger the ability, the latter (the one i subscribe to) would not.
Post edited by: Snooby, at: 2007/10/28 23:02
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crimsongrove
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Posts: 9
Re:Assembly triggered abilities - 2007/10/29 01:52I'm a little confused with some of the ideas here. Hopefully this doesn't sound too silly.
So ships that enter play "become fully assembled" via the transition from hand to board?
So for a card like narrow escape which says "...return it to your dock to be reasembled again..." Does this count as a ship "becoming fully assembled" if the ship has no assembly duration, or is the ship just constantly assembled?
I'm more confused on the details of the above situation rather than the "yeah we know it works" kind of thing.
Post edited by: crimsongrove, at: 2007/10/29 00:55
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