If I have a Patrol 2 ship in a region with a Bastion of Blood, what happens when I Patrol off two enemy ships? Logic would dictate that my opponent could choose which ship must target the patrolling ship, and the other ship would be free to choose a target of it's own.
Secondly, if I happened to have a Concord Swat Officer with Patrol 2 (due to either raysere giant or a crooked accomplice) in the region with the Bastion of Blood, would it's ability to prevent the enemy ships damage until end of turn still work on both the ships that it patrols? I have been using it like this, but some of the other members of the group think that since the Bastion of Blood restricts targetting, all ships there can only Patrol one enemy ship, even if they have Patrol 2+.
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At the beginning of a target step choose up to x target attacking ships, you may force the chosen target to target this ship if able
it does say if able, so in my mind once you have patrolled one ship, any other patrols fail. You wouldn't choose 2 ships and let your opponent choose one, you would only choose 1 ship.
Now the case of the Concord Swat Officer, I would say again only the ship forced to target the CSO has it's damage prevented. Again because as I see it, the patrol fails with it's "is able" clause. This may, however, be open for a little more discussion, but it seems to fit the intention, and is the least powerful alternative.
My answer would be they "effectively" have patrol 1 in all cases.
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Trigger: Beginning of Target Step. Triggered ability: Choose up to X target attacking ships to be Patrolled. Effect of being Patrolled: The target ship MUST attack this Patrolling ship, even if it hadn't been intending to target anything at all. Escape clause: If unable to attack this patrolling ship, the patrolled ship is not otherwise restricted in its targeting.
If you have Patrol 2 and target two ships, but you also control Bastion of Blood in the region and can only be targeted by one ship, then you have just given your opponent the choice: One of the two patrolled ships MUST attack the patrolling ship, and the other one, since it is unable to attack after the first attacks, is unrestricted in its targeting. It was still the target of Patrol though, for other effects (such as Cyclone or Concord SWAT Officer).-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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stevetheone
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 540
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2007/11/29 14:13I'd say that targetting 2 or more ships with patrol with a bastion of blood in it would be a very foolish move and agree that if a player did do that then the opposing player would get to decide which of the 2 ships would be targetted as a result.We shall seed the stars with our scions and reap that harvest.
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kapads
User Scout
Posts: 3
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2007/11/30 02:49I am one of the people that plays EVE with Jezzail and I was the one that started this dispute, but, after reconsidering the wording of patrol, I am starting to think that he is right.
PATROL 1 (At the beginning of a target step choose up to 1 target attacking ship, you may force the chosen target to target this ship if able.)
The fact that patrol says "you may" implies that you don't have to force any patrolled ship to actually target you and infact, atleast in the suggested circumstance of having Raysere in a Swat officer with a Bastion of blood, can choose 2 ships to be patrolled and force the 1, of your choice, to target your swat officer, in-effect, preventing both ships from dealing any damage until end of turn, because they were both patrolled.
If anyone can provide reason to prove me wrong please do so because i don't like the idea of this working but I am now fairly convinced that is does work.
kap
Post edited by: kapads, at: 2007/11/30 02:51
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The problem I think is around the definition of "patrols" or being patrolled
Are you patrolled if you are chosen as a target attacking ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced to target patrolling ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced but unable to target patrolling ship?
From reading the rules there is no definition of being patrolled, really this is open to interpretation without an official ruling.
Personally to those options I'd say no, yes, maybe.
And on the maybe, as stated elsewhere it is always best to assume the least powerful result is true.
Also I'm uncertain about the attacker choosing which ship gets patrolled if bastion is in play but the defender chooses too patrol two ships? Why does the attacker choose there is no precedent that I can see? It should be the first one declared (or the second one declared if we're putting these on a pile)
Post edited by: Brootal, at: 2007/11/30 04:44
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The problem I think is around the definition of "patrols" or being patrolled
Are you patrolled if you are chosen as a target attacking ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced to target patrolling ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced but unable to target patrolling ship?
From reading the rules there is no definition of being patrolled, really this is open to interpretation without an official ruling.
Personally to those options I'd say no, yes, maybe.
And on the maybe, as stated elsewhere it is always best to assume the least powerful result is true.
My original argument with Jezzail was quite similar to this and its still a grey area without an official ruling, although, the "you may" clause does suggest that there could be a circumstance under which you patrol someone but do not force them to target you and that would still satisfy the conditions of being patrolled.
Also I'm uncertain about the attacker choosing which ship gets patrolled
As i said in my previous post i think the DEFENDER, the controller of the ship that is patrolling, chooses.
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Zorbarak
User Frigate
Posts: 48
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2007/11/30 10:41When Patrol says: "..., you may..." that is for you to know you do not HAVE TO choose a target. When being attacked by two cruisers your four Patrol-1 frigates all may use their command ability, but you are not forced to do so. You are free to choose two of your ships to use Patrol and the others not to use it.
I never met anybody who told me: "I use patrol - oh and I force the patrolled ship to target mine." It sounded something like: "I use ship x's patrol to force your ship y to target mine." If you say "you may" is related to force the patrolled ship to target, than you stay with "at the beginning of target step choose up to x target attacking ships" and therefor Patrol is a command you are forced to use at the beginning of target step, not an option you MAY use while on defense.Nothing is as simple as it looks.
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stevetheone
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 540
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2007/11/30 11:25In the end targetting 2+ ships with a ship with multiple patrols in a region with a Bastion of Blood is an illegal move and so if any player does it then the controlling player is in his/her rights to decide which of the ships is targetted and effected by the patrol. The other ships are not effected in any way.We shall seed the stars with our scions and reap that harvest.
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Ryuteki
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 679
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2007/12/12 01:25stevetheone wrote: In the end targetting 2+ ships with a ship with multiple patrols in a region with a Bastion of Blood is an illegal move and so if any player does it then the controlling player is in his/her rights to decide which of the ships is targetted and effected by the patrol. The other ships are not effected in any way.
Not illegal, just irrelevant.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Arimdakr
User Scout
Posts: 1
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2007/12/14 07:19I think that when Bastion of Blood is in question, it doesn't matter how high your Patrol is. Only one ship can target each friendly ship in a region with a Bastion of Blood. You just force ships to target your ships in whatever way works best out for you and that's the end of that.
When we're talking about a Concord Swat Officer with Patrol 2, it still doesn't change anything. Bastion of Blood states that friendly ships cannot be targeted by more than one ship. So you cannot pick two ships to target your Swat Officer. Because of Bastion of Blood. You can only pick one and that damage is prevented as usual.
I think this is pretty simple and you are all just making this a lot more complicated than it actually is.
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Ryuteki
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 679
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2008/01/15 04:35Arimdakr wrote: I think that when Bastion of Blood is in question, it doesn't matter how high your Patrol is. Only one ship can target each friendly ship in a region with a Bastion of Blood. You just force ships to target your ships in whatever way works best out for you and that's the end of that.
When we're talking about a Concord Swat Officer with Patrol 2, it still doesn't change anything. Bastion of Blood states that friendly ships cannot be targeted by more than one ship. So you cannot pick two ships to target your Swat Officer. Because of Bastion of Blood. You can only pick one and that damage is prevented as usual.
I think this is pretty simple and you are all just making this a lot more complicated than it actually is.
Bastion of Blood places no restrictions on the use of Commands such as Patrol. It places restrictions only on ships' ability to target other ships. Please re-read my original comment for more details.-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Kempeth
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 367
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2008/01/15 08:17PATROL 1 (At the beginning of a target step choose up to 1 target attacking ship, you may force the chosen target to target this ship if able.)
Are you patrolled if you are chosen as a target attacking ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced to target patrolling ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced but unable to target patrolling ship? I would say No-Yes-No. My reasoning is this: When we compare Patrol to ambush, for both abilities you select a ship and later choose if you want to follow through. I think we all agree that if you only choose the target for ambush but decide not to do the damage then the ship isn't really ambushed. With patrol it is simmilar. You choose both ships but unless you force them to attack you they are not patrolled. Now when you force the first of them to attack your ship the second no longer can attack it. Therefore the condition "if able" fails and prevents you from actually patrolling the second ship.
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Ryuteki
User Battlecruiser
Posts: 679
Re:Patrol ships and the Bastion of Blood - 2008/01/21 01:17Kempeth wrote: PATROL 1 (At the beginning of a target step choose up to 1 target attacking ship, you may force the chosen target to target this ship if able.)
Are you patrolled if you are chosen as a target attacking ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced to target patrolling ship? Are you patrolled if you are forced but unable to target patrolling ship? I would say No-Yes-No. My reasoning is this: When we compare Patrol to ambush, for both abilities you select a ship and later choose if you want to follow through. I think we all agree that if you only choose the target for ambush but decide not to do the damage then the ship isn't really ambushed.
You think incorrectly - if you select a ship for Ambush and choose not to follow through, it has still been Ambushed - though honestly I do not believe you have the option not to damage an Ambushed ship. The answers to your proposed question are Yes, Yes, Yes (presuming it is the Patrol ability choosing the ship and forcing the ship to attempt to target, of course).-Ryuteki, Owner of the Rules! We're playing Monday evenings in IL, see www.games-plus.com for the address or email me at ryuteki AT gmail DOT com.
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Ambush now reads: Ambush X (At the beginning of a withdraw step, choose a target attacking ship. This ship may deal X damage to the chosen target.
"may", I read that as option. Patrol, Ambush & Sensor dampen all have the ability to choose target ships (in fact MUST choose target ships if able) but are then able not to use their effect if they so choose.
Although this has little to do with the argument at hand
Personally I'd disagree with you Ryuteki, however, I don't think there's much basis for either of us to argue on, it's a matter of definition one which according to the rulebook is undefined.
Post edited by: Brootal, at: 2008/01/21 02:38
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